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	<title>Comments on: Dead Space Dissection: My God, It&#8217;s Full Of Zombies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/</link>
	<description>Breaking Into the Industry</description>
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		<title>By: Ninwa</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3505</link>
		<dc:creator>Ninwa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 04:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3505</guid>
		<description>Two words: LOADING SCREENS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two words: LOADING SCREENS.</p>
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		<title>By: nanomu</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3491</link>
		<dc:creator>nanomu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3491</guid>
		<description>The biggest few problems in most games I&#039;ve played are:
* Bad or distracting animation/graphics/sound that are completely unrealistic or unfeasable.
* UIs that get in the way of gameplay. Too lacking in features, too confusing, too cumbersome, or just plain taking up too much screen space.
* Any part of a game that defies all reasonable logic and common sense.
* Lack of, badly designed, or unrealistic setting/story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest few problems in most games I&#8217;ve played are:<br />
* Bad or distracting animation/graphics/sound that are completely unrealistic or unfeasable.<br />
* UIs that get in the way of gameplay. Too lacking in features, too confusing, too cumbersome, or just plain taking up too much screen space.<br />
* Any part of a game that defies all reasonable logic and common sense.<br />
* Lack of, badly designed, or unrealistic setting/story.</p>
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		<title>By: Zorba</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3484</link>
		<dc:creator>Zorba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3484</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s actually a problem I have with a lot of Bioware games. They act like their games are really choice-based and like you can do anything in them, but at best there&#039;s two different endings based on whether you acted in a more conventional honorable fashion or a more conventional evil fashion. Instead of a line, it&#039;s *two* lines, with the ability to choose which line you&#039;re on at almost any arbitrary moment (except the very end.)

I still feel like the best approach is Fallout&#039;s - most of the choices you made had moderate &quot;long-term&quot; consequences at most, you could play one village &quot;evil&quot; and one village &quot;good&quot; without too much trouble, but your actions in one area had serious consequences on how the story of that zone played out. It&#039;s a nice compromise between &quot;your choices are meaningless&quot; and &quot;okay, now we need to write a thousand plotlines for this game&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s actually a problem I have with a lot of Bioware games. They act like their games are really choice-based and like you can do anything in them, but at best there&#8217;s two different endings based on whether you acted in a more conventional honorable fashion or a more conventional evil fashion. Instead of a line, it&#8217;s *two* lines, with the ability to choose which line you&#8217;re on at almost any arbitrary moment (except the very end.)</p>
<p>I still feel like the best approach is Fallout&#8217;s &#8211; most of the choices you made had moderate &#8220;long-term&#8221; consequences at most, you could play one village &#8220;evil&#8221; and one village &#8220;good&#8221; without too much trouble, but your actions in one area had serious consequences on how the story of that zone played out. It&#8217;s a nice compromise between &#8220;your choices are meaningless&#8221; and &#8220;okay, now we need to write a thousand plotlines for this game&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3483</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3483</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been particularly interested in feedback loops in video games recently. That is, how do my choices (mechanical or narrative) in the game tell me how I&#039;m doing in the game. The classic immersion-breaking instance of a bad feedback loop is the old jrpg false choice: &quot;Do you want to go after the bad guy?&quot; &quot;No!&quot; &quot;But We have to go after the bad guy!&quot; &quot;Do you want to go after the bad guy?&quot; etc. You don&#039;t even get negative feedback in that case; just stonewalling.

Mass Effect&#039;s feedback from the conversation trees was interesting, but didn&#039;t manage to hold up. There were lots of choices to make throughout the game, but the actual impact of most of them was pretty small; you might get a fitting reaction for your choice, but the conversation quickly returned to the central thread. (It was a nasty boss fight that showed me this. I had to go through the pre-fight conversation four or five times, enough to try most of the conversation tree and see that there was very little difference) Once I had seen through the illusion, the immersive factor shrank.

Fable II&#039;s felt a bit better, if limited in scope. There were a handful of real choices you made, which fed back into a combination of narrative and mechanical effects. It was neat, but not nuanced enough to really feel natural and immersive.

Tales of Vesperia is an interesting counter-case. The narrative side of the game has absolutely zero feedback. It&#039;s a pure-rails JRPG. Yet the writing is good enough, and the characters are complex enough, that I find myself very involved in the story and interested in what happens next. Involvement and Immersion aren&#039;t quite the same thing, but they seem related.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been particularly interested in feedback loops in video games recently. That is, how do my choices (mechanical or narrative) in the game tell me how I&#8217;m doing in the game. The classic immersion-breaking instance of a bad feedback loop is the old jrpg false choice: &#8220;Do you want to go after the bad guy?&#8221; &#8220;No!&#8221; &#8220;But We have to go after the bad guy!&#8221; &#8220;Do you want to go after the bad guy?&#8221; etc. You don&#8217;t even get negative feedback in that case; just stonewalling.</p>
<p>Mass Effect&#8217;s feedback from the conversation trees was interesting, but didn&#8217;t manage to hold up. There were lots of choices to make throughout the game, but the actual impact of most of them was pretty small; you might get a fitting reaction for your choice, but the conversation quickly returned to the central thread. (It was a nasty boss fight that showed me this. I had to go through the pre-fight conversation four or five times, enough to try most of the conversation tree and see that there was very little difference) Once I had seen through the illusion, the immersive factor shrank.</p>
<p>Fable II&#8217;s felt a bit better, if limited in scope. There were a handful of real choices you made, which fed back into a combination of narrative and mechanical effects. It was neat, but not nuanced enough to really feel natural and immersive.</p>
<p>Tales of Vesperia is an interesting counter-case. The narrative side of the game has absolutely zero feedback. It&#8217;s a pure-rails JRPG. Yet the writing is good enough, and the characters are complex enough, that I find myself very involved in the story and interested in what happens next. Involvement and Immersion aren&#8217;t quite the same thing, but they seem related.</p>
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		<title>By: Zorba</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3479</link>
		<dc:creator>Zorba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3479</guid>
		<description>Red: Yeah, the vend-o-machine-gun in Dead Space seems a little odd. All the other upgrades, sure, but how many mining ships sell heavy weaponry onboard no-questions-asked?

Tang: Those can be quite fun as well. I&#039;m actually mulling over the idea of writing a game heavily based around that :) I think the two sides of the coin actually help either other - you can&#039;t revel in immersion issues without recognizing the issues, and you sometimes can&#039;t fix them properly without seeing them taken to extreme. They&#039;ve both got their place, and they&#039;re both hard to do well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Red: Yeah, the vend-o-machine-gun in Dead Space seems a little odd. All the other upgrades, sure, but how many mining ships sell heavy weaponry onboard no-questions-asked?</p>
<p>Tang: Those can be quite fun as well. I&#8217;m actually mulling over the idea of writing a game heavily based around that :) I think the two sides of the coin actually help either other &#8211; you can&#8217;t revel in immersion issues without recognizing the issues, and you sometimes can&#8217;t fix them properly without seeing them taken to extreme. They&#8217;ve both got their place, and they&#8217;re both hard to do well.</p>
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		<title>By: Tang</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3477</link>
		<dc:creator>Tang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3477</guid>
		<description>This discussion reminds me of a couple of amateur flash games that recognize immersion issues by reveling in them. In the Mardek series of FF-style RPGs, one of the party members guides you through the UI while the main character stays in character and wonders &quot;What&#039;s a menu? What&#039;s a B button? WTF are you talking about?&quot;

There&#039;s also a scene in one of the Absalom games where, after trudging through the longest and most difficult dungeon, the heroes are even more surprised than you are to find that the cute shop-lady from town has set up a shop at the bottom of the dungeon. The discussion goes along the lines of &quot;......HOW?!?!????&quot; &quot;You&#039;re my best customers so I figured a shop down here would be good for business!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion reminds me of a couple of amateur flash games that recognize immersion issues by reveling in them. In the Mardek series of FF-style RPGs, one of the party members guides you through the UI while the main character stays in character and wonders &#8220;What&#8217;s a menu? What&#8217;s a B button? WTF are you talking about?&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a scene in one of the Absalom games where, after trudging through the longest and most difficult dungeon, the heroes are even more surprised than you are to find that the cute shop-lady from town has set up a shop at the bottom of the dungeon. The discussion goes along the lines of &#8220;&#8230;&#8230;HOW?!?!????&#8221; &#8220;You&#8217;re my best customers so I figured a shop down here would be good for business!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://www.mandible.net/2008/11/30/dead-space-dissection-my-god-its-full-of-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3476</link>
		<dc:creator>red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 00:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandible.net/?p=111#comment-3476</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a fun game. 

One problem I usually see with games is the shops where you purchase your weapons or upgrades. I&#039;d like to see a game where it actually makes sense. I dig the new suit movie cut in Dead Space though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a fun game. </p>
<p>One problem I usually see with games is the shops where you purchase your weapons or upgrades. I&#8217;d like to see a game where it actually makes sense. I dig the new suit movie cut in Dead Space though.</p>
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